A Conversation with Dr. Nneka J. McGee

[00:00:00.000] – Steve Barkley

Leaders Learning from Leaders. I’m excited to welcome Dr. Nneka J. McGee to this episode of Leaders Learning from Leaders. Dr. McGee has researched the implementation of artificial intelligence in K-12 teaching and learning as a component of creating opportunities for students to navigate a future driven by artificial intelligence. She has been a frequent keynoter and panelist to organizations preparing school leaders to maximize AI potential. At the upcoming New York State Council of School Superintendents Conference, her keynote will explore human connections and the visionary leadership in navigating education in the AI era. Her breakout session will examine future-ready leadership, connecting operations, instruction, and tomorrow’s workforce. Her latest work, “AI for Young Learners: Balancing Tech Use with Authentic Off-Stream Experiences,” will be published soon as a jumpstart guide by ISTI. Welcome, Nneka. I’m really looking forward to meeting you and hearing your insights.

[00:01:27.120] – Dr. Nneka McGee

Thank you. I appreciate you, Steve. I appreciate introduction, and I’m so happy to talk with you today.

[00:01:35.500] – Steve Barkley

I’m wondering if you tell us a little bit about your background that led to your focus on AI.

[00:01:44.960] – Dr. Nneka McGee

Oh, definitely. Thank you for asking for my background. I like to couch it in the year that Terminator came out, is the year – and I know I’m showing my age, but this is the first year I had a computer. I begged for a computer. Both my parents are mathematicians, have advanced degrees in mathematics. My mom was an administrator in a college of Engineering. Back then, most computers were still fairly large and behind glass, and I wanted one. I was like, I have to have a computer. I have to have a computer. For my birthday, I received a IBM 5155, which I still have, which was considered portable at 27 pounds. [laughter]

[00:02:30.850] – Steve Barkley

[laughter]

[00:02:31.200] – Dr. Nneka McGee

It still works. But back then, you had to learn how to code. I just love with computers. We had to code with BASIC. Your computer wasn’t working if you didn’t know how to use the programming language. From there, I’ve always had a love of computers. Jump forward a couple of decades, I was looking to find ways to help keep advanced students engaged. I started looking… Artificial intelligence computers had always been there, but then how do I apply it in educational settings to create engaging activities for students?

[00:03:14.460] – Dr. Nneka McGee

This was before ChatGPT came out, and I was doing this work and like a natural pathway for me was to go and complete my research through a doctoral program. From there, two weeks after I received my IRB approval, ChatGPT was released. From there, it’s been an amazing journey. But basically, the roots of my interest in artificial intelligence as rooted in computer science started that year that Terminator came out. I like to preface it like most people think of Terminator, I was thinking about Kit, Nightrider. [laughter] That’s my frame of reference.

[00:04:02.060] – Steve Barkley

The speed of all those changes coming during that time frame is mind boggling to me. I’ve been in education a whole lot longer. I was back when kids came to school still watching three channels on TV. To watch that change is just amazing. I’m wondering if you talk a little bit about what do you see with AI in education right now, and what do you think we should be seeing right now? We’ll talk future here in a moment, but what are you seeing now in your mind? What should we be seeing now?

[00:04:57.400] – Dr. Nneka McGee

Right now, what I’m seeing is a a lot of interest and a lot of how do we make this work. You have one side of, let’s ban it, we don’t understand it, the kids will be cheating. On the other side, it’s we’re totally into it, give us more, in between. You have EdTech companies. There’s 15 different products coming at you per second, and everyone wanting to tell you how theirs is going to transform education ways that will blow your mind. But with that, comes the fact that artificial intelligence in some form has been here for some time and has been in use in education since the 1960s. Interestingly, forms of AI have been used in classrooms even before the AI of the moment, which is generative AI. I think it’s in our role and how we’re using I think an education is first, having that realization of how long it’s impacted us that this is not something new while at the same time, having that understanding that generative AI is really disruptive, and we do have to pay attention about its implications and how we’re utilizing it and how to implement it in our educational environments with fidelity.

[00:06:23.400] – Dr. Nneka McGee

There’s a great tension there of like, what do we do with it? But a part of that tension is having to understand understanding of the different forms of AI and AI-related systems that have existed and persisted in our learning environments and those that will continue to have an impact where we are now and beyond.

[00:06:47.500] – Steve Barkley

What would you hope to see happening in the near future because of the opportunities that AI has for schools and learners?

[00:07:00.680] – Dr. Nneka McGee

Well, let me preface this by just focus a little bit back on that previous question because you talked about the impact, and this relates to the future. I like to use, as educators do, acronyms. It helps me focus on different things. I call it the paper clip. I think about the impact. First, we have to think about community. A lot of times, we think of community as our staff, our students. But what about business owners? As we think about jobs, business owners, community members in terms of advocates, religious leaders, politicians – how do they help in that educational setting? Literacy. This has an impact now, has an impact into the future. AI literacy. Where does AI literacy need to be separate from media literacy, digital literacy? Implementation has been a big issue. How do we make sure it’s safe for, first and foremost, our students, but everyone in our environment? Then finally, policy. Policy is a big thing. A lot of times we hear about this policy and we have to do it now, but superintendents know I was a chief academic officer – working with policy, it does take time. How do we inform and lead and guide our school systems, understanding that true deep policy does take time to implement.

[00:08:32.210] – Dr. Nneka McGee

So are there guidelines? As I mentioned, we’ve been using artificial intelligence systems for years. And some of that work, I believe, involves connecting those systems with the one that dominates the moment, which is generative AI. So I realized, for example, that AI, but also other emerging technologies such as quantum, are going to have a significant impact on our society. But I have to be honest, I’m not as certain that AI on its own will bring about that monumental transformation in our systems, but at least in the short term, just because it’s been here. If we’ve been using AI systems, for example, adaptive assessments, have been around. If you use MAP in your school system, you’re using an adaptive assessment that has been around for some time. We’re grappling, education leaders – we have attendance issues, student well-being, budget constraints, teacher retention, a myriad of other challenges. While in a perfect world, it would be nice if our systems and curricula were designed to optimally support future-ready students. I remain optimistic that we’ll get closer to that goal.

[00:10:02.140] – Dr. Nneka McGee

But I really, as a leader who had two initiatives that I helped support in two different districts before ChatGPT came out, I’m optimistic that we’ll get to that goal, but I also want to be realistic about the challenges and the opportunities that leaders face, along with the other challenges we face to implement artificial intelligence in ways that are significantly positive for our students.

[00:10:22.720] – Steve Barkley

I’m going to try practicing my listening skills and tell you what’s going through my head from having listened so far and see if you put me on a track. I’m almost hearing it’s less about looking at the impact of AI and more at looking at the issues that we need to be impacting and how AI might assist in making that happen.

[00:10:55.240] – Dr. Nneka McGee

Definitely. And this goes into the amount of tools and a lot of these generative AI tools that we may hear about and other AI tools. But for example, I mentioned this, if you’re particularly a high school principal or addressing with high school, master scheduling, oh my…every spring you just want to crawl into a hole and like, curl up. [laughter] If there’s an AI system that is safe, that will provide me a way to be more efficient and help us reduce, like, fatals, what they call fatals, in the system where you’re doing those scheduling, bring it on. Sometimes I feel like we have solutions, but we need to ask the questions that bring about the solutions that will help us. Instead of solution first, we need to have more questions first. And so you’re absolutely on the money with that great implementation of those listening skills.

[00:11:59.420] – Steve Barkley

In prepping for my conversation with you and looking at websites, I uncovered that equity is a key focus of yours, and I’m seeing that AI should assist us in addressing that.

[00:12:21.100] – Dr. Nneka McGee

Well, yes, definitely. When thinking about equity, I also like to align it with access to opportunity. There’s one key point when I’m talking with leaders that I feel is essential. We can have one-to-one classrooms. Every kid can have a computer. You can have AI in everything, generative AI. However, if the AI is not responsive to your respective communities, have you really given access? Do kids really have opportunity if they don’t see themselves in the outputs that AI produces if the data is skewed because it’s been trained with data that isn’t relevant to respective communities? That’s a tension in equity and access and opportunity that those of us who’s been working in AI for some time and those who are new do have to grapple with as we continue to expand how we’re using AI in our learning environments.

[00:13:25.680] – Steve Barkley

I’m wondering if you’d offer up some critical questions that you think superintendents and other district school leader staff should be asking. I want to give them permission not to know the answers, but they should be asking the question.

[00:13:44.240] – Dr. Nneka McGee

Definitely. Now you’re getting them to a little sneak peek of what I’ll be discussing during the Council of School Superintendents conference. I’ll give a little bit away about those questions. The biggest…shh – don’t tell anybody. [laughter]

[00:14:00.221] – Steve Barkley

[laughter]

[00:14:00.410] – Dr. Nneka McGee

The biggest question that I have asked for years, and I tell leaders, this is the first essential question, is it necessary? I mean, right now, for example, just outside of the school, they have AI in the washing machine. Do I really need an AI system in my washing machine? There are some things, particularly because there’s a tool for everything. There’s AI, and sometimes not AI. Let’s be clear, some of these are not AI or AI-related systems. But when you’re looking at the problems and challenges that you face as superintendent, is it necessary? Do you need it? Does it solve a critical need in your district for your students, for your staff, for your community? If the answer is no, it’s okay to say, you know what? Not yet. I did it plenty of times when I was supporting a district as a CEO, as an executive director, supporting my superintendent as a member of the cabinet, which is important in helping them.

[00:15:14.100] – Dr. Nneka McGee

I understand, hey, this time, based on feedback, based on data, this is not right for right now, and that’s important. Is there community support? This is going to be essential. If your community is not supportive, it may need more introduction about what AI is, how it implements. Again, it’s been here, it’s in everything. A lot of times, even making that connection helps when you have a resistant community. But if the community says no, and no superintendents, their school boards have one employee, which is that superintendent. If the school board says, we can’t support this, and they have the purse strings, then there has to be different decisions made about AI implementation. This is critical given our current times now. Is there funding available? It may not be there to implement programs. Is there guidance from local and state governments? A lot of our state governments have produced guidance. There’s a website from TCAI that has updates, that has guidance from states, but that’s going to be important. You might have a state like Ohio that has said, you need to have an AI policy in your districts. And so as a superintendent, you don’t have a lot of wiggle room about how you’re going to implement.

[00:16:37.160] – Dr. Nneka McGee

Or you may have a state like Texas who has no guidelines yet, where it’s like, how do we go out? Are there organizations that support our state board’s organization? It’s called TASBI that provides guidance and support for districts. And then finally, is an implementation timeline realistic? When it comes to AI and other emerging technologies, this is not a one and done. It’s not let’s have an AI night or have a board meeting where someone gets up and talks about AI. This is a long-term implementation system. And so is the timeline realistic with the goals and the needs of the district? Those are just five questions that I feel that superintendents need to ask as they go along in their AI journeys.

[00:17:30.000] – Steve Barkley

Interesting. I had prepared a question I was going to ask you as to what role the superintendents have in educating their boards and community. But as I’m listening to you now, I’m thinking that a question that precedes that is the superintendent has a responsibility to find out what the board and what the community knows and thinks before they go into the education piece.

[00:17:58.400] – Dr. Nneka McGee

Definitely. But that goes back into that part. That’s a part of the education, right? Where are they now, right? What is the entry point for those communities? Because if you have a community that has the Terminator, that’s their first, what are they here? It’s the Terminator. It’s taking our jobs. It’s reforming education in ways that there’s no choice. Or here’s a big one, that a computer is going to be teaching my kid. There’s so many negative information campaigns out, and I don’t necessarily want to say campaign. I don’t think there’s someone behind the scenes forcing it. It’s just what has happened as a result of how we have been introduced to different AI systems over time. A part of that is understanding. I can tell you in the districts where I had initiatives, we did talk to the parents and families in the communities first. We had focus groups or put out surveys. That was very important because that helped guide us in how to implement and again, answer that question, is it necessary? For example, in one district, we started working with AI robots. They were little robots that provide questions, personalized learning.

[00:19:26.980] – Dr. Nneka McGee

Based on our survey results, it’s like, we can do this, but we have to do it as a pilot. We have to show that this is going to be viable, that it’s going to impact student outcomes in a positive way. In the second district where we implemented an AI system, it was broader. It was like, okay, we started with a small group, but then it was like, now we have to expand based on that feedback. That’s going to be essential. With that, I would say to that question about a superintendents ensuring, educating the community is being proactive. So leveraging your cabinet. The superintendent, when it started, was like, Hey, CAO. Hey, leadership teams. Isn’t this a critical time where you’re going to need every part of your leadership team teams, from your finance to your operations to your IT, hug them. [laughter] That’s going to be so essential. Seeking out professional organizations as we talked about. But I would I would say, forming advisory councils that include family members, business leaders, community advocates, members of the school staff, that has been vital and show to be successful into district situations, just personal experience.

[00:20:51.880] – Steve Barkley

In looking at your website, I saw a presentation that you had done that was titled, “Embracing your Superpower: Human Connection in an AI world.” I’m wondering if you just talk a little bit about that human connection piece.

[00:21:08.020] – Dr. Nneka McGee

Oh, definitely. It’s one of my favorite presentations for leaders. And one of the things that I show during this presentation is it’s a clip of two nerve cells, and they’re trying to form a connection. I preface that with, we seek connection at a cellular level, and it’s the amplification of that connection that’s necessary now. And what that superpower is, is our ability to form deep, meaningful relationships. It’s a power, yes, a digital world can emulate, but it can’t replace. And I’m going to preface that with yet. We’re seeing improvements, but for now, that power to develop relationships, to have emotions, to provide relational support, like some call it “Relational Intelligence” – is essential. There’s an awesome book out about relational intelligence that I could recommend, “Love to Learn,” by Isabel Howe. And although it addresses for early education, it just is a great book overall to get an understanding of relational intelligence, building relationships, and how that connection elevates us above our artificial intelligence overlords. [laughter]

[00:22:33.820] – Steve Barkley

I also pulled this quote from your website, and I’m guessing that it’s connected to the upcoming release you have on AI for young learners.

[00:22:46.680] – Steve Barkley

“A gradual, age-appropriate introduction to AI can better prepare students to engage with more complex concepts as they progress through school.” Can you talk a a little bit about what you see as that young learner piece and how it modifies?

[00:23:07.860] – Dr. Nneka McGee

Oh, definitely. So when it comes to our youngest learners, and again, I know I’m someone that’s all in on AI, trust me, but just through research, I don’t believe that kids that are young need exposure to AI through screen time. However, they need to have an awareness of what AI is and how it impacts our society. You can really do that through hands-on activities, through conversations, and that can really build an awareness that when you get to your later years, when you’re able to utilize artificial intelligence systems in ways that are supporting education through building, through creating in other forms, then in high school, middle school, the later middle school ages, you can get in and use those systems. I don’t necessarily want to say chatbots per se, but different forms of AI to help support learning. Basically, it’s a transition from hands-on to littles to programming and career preparation for high school.

[00:24:21.320] – Steve Barkley

I know this next topic is one that you could probably teach a course on, for sure a whole podcast on. But the question that keeps popping up, at least that I’m running into, is AI and critical thinking. Can you piece together a little bit of what role does learning how to work with AI help us develop deeper, more critical thinkers?

[00:24:55.220] – Dr. Nneka McGee

Definitely. I agree with you, Steve, and that’s just such a great topic. Like you said, we could spend hours talking about critical thinking, but you’re correct. You hear, “Oh, is artificial intelligence taking away critical thinking skills?” There’s some preliminary research out there that has shown that an overreliance on artificial intelligence systems do impact critical thinking skills. How do we address that? The other big question in terms of, is it necessary? One of the other questions that I’m asked is, where do we start? Interestingly, when I provide this answer, most people will say at first like, “huh?”I say, start with talk. Our tradition is oral. Before we started writing things down, we talked. Research from Hattie has shown that effective questioning and discussion can lead to one to two years growth in a year’s amount of time. There’s research that shows us that talk is important and can be effective. To build that critical thinking piece, again, going back to asking the right questions. That could be for a young child. They understand fairness. So it’s like, hey, if someone takes away the picture that you just drew and uses it, what do you think about that?

[00:26:26.860] – Dr. Nneka McGee

“Oh, mine?” They’re going to have a response. And that question can progress as we get up into later, into our secondary years to talk about what are the impacts of artificial intelligence when it comes to things like copyright and creation and what does it mean to create and what does ownership mean? So starting with talk is critical as a foundational piece to developing critical thinkers. The other thing that’s happening, and the cheating argument, I’m going to piece to decide. That is something, yes, it is an issue. But even more critical is, how do we even discern reality at this point? Some of the videos that you’re seeing right now, there was just another hoax – every other day, you’re hearing about people who are drawn into these fake videos. Another critical thing for superintendents that will bubble up, and we can delve a little bit deeper – I use that AI word still [laughter]. But one of the things are deep fakes and our students is a big issue. It’s going to become even more important that we understand how deep fakes work and how to address those issues in schools, because it will start coming up more and more that students are impacted by what’s going on with deep fakes.

[00:27:51.180] – Dr. Nneka McGee

Even there is a story out. I’m tool and systems agnostic. I don’t like to use specific titles, but if you look in the news, there was just a story about what’s going on when it comes to how images are being used with our youth, and I think it’s critical there. Given the fact that this blurring of reality to how do we, in terms of literacy, be intentional about judging reality, judging sources, the discernment that’s necessary? That’s a skill that’s going to take time and needs to be addressed. Then, does AI literacy necessarily have to be separate from media literacy? I’m on the fence there. I think I would rather reinforce it through media literacy, through digital literacy, as opposed to having it separate given the time that we have. I know there’s this push and pull there. It’s just one person’s opinion, but it’s still critical. Our students are going to have to have a skill set that allows them to navigate what’s real and what is relevant and what is important in our society. Again, we talked about access and opportunity, and this is about exposure. It’s easy to say no right now. I mean, I’ve been in places where people in school districts have said, “We’re not ready.”

[00:29:26.560] – Dr. Nneka McGee

I’ve even been in a place where an educator said, “This the devil’s tech, and we will not use it.” Just a true statement. But I’ve also been in districts where it’s like, “We’re ready.” And so understanding where you are, going back to what is your community ready for? But understanding there has to be some form of exposure. So let’s say you are in a totally resistant community. What can a superintendent do? Does that mean putting out just a one-pager on a website that says, okay, so at least we can be ready because when it comes, here’s these salient points we have to have available. Ensuring that there is exposure that leads to access an opportunity is also important when we’re thinking about preparing students as critical thinkers.

[00:30:19.520] – Steve Barkley

If nothing else, the starting point of what question do you have to ask? I’m at the point where a text comes up on my phone, and the first thing I have to do is come up with a set of questions to ask myself. That’s just going to get  increasingly complicated and teaching students to be empowered to do the thinking and the asking. There’s just so many questions for us to be exploring with kids.

[00:30:51.780] – Dr. Nneka McGee

But Steve, would you agree that we aren’t giving our students those skills now to the at which it’s going to be necessary for them to navigate their future?

[00:31:03.840] – Steve Barkley

For sure. Absolutely for sure. To me, that’s what the whole cheating question really comes down to. In my approach, I’ve been suggesting you need to require the kids to use AI, and then they have to tell you how they used it, why they decided to use it that way, and what’s their assessment of it after having done it that way. That’s where the learning piece comes in.

[00:31:34.040] – Dr. Nneka McGee

Oh, definitely. With the hallucination rates of generative AI at this point, they will probably see, wait a minute, this is not efficient. Then they begin to understand. One of my most favorite lessons that I developed with AI has to do with creation. It dealt with Frankenstein. I was developing some lessons for AP Lit class, and so they were looking at Frankenstein, and I brought in a whole just different… You can use it with any grade level, but just any type of material. I use this quote from Frankenstein that talks about what creation and what it felt like to create. I say, create something. Just use the materials, create it. And then I asked the students, okay, now that you’ve created it, try to replicate that through a prompt. And at the time, when I developed the lesson, the system that we use was very rudimentary, but they had a digital creation apparatus. And then I asked them, was there a difference in what it felt like to create physically with hands-on materials and what it felt like to try to replicate that in a digital environment? It led to some great discussions. Then we’ve been in those discussions by saying, now that you’ve created, what would it feel like from someone to take your creation and use it without your permission?

[00:33:09.440] – Dr. Nneka McGee

And this was not even thinking the implications of where we are now to see it in fruition, but it leads to such deep conversations. And I know other educators who have used it at different grade levels. So pretty interesting.

[00:33:29.060] – Steve Barkley

Well, thank you so I was looking forward to this conversation, and it certainly not only did it not disappoint, but it’s got me walking away with more questions than I jumped on here with, which is I’m pretty sure exactly where we need to be today. I was wondering if we could close out with talking about a mindset, one mindset that you think is critical for superintendent school leaders to either have now or a mindset shift that might be necessary?

[00:34:08.140] – Dr. Nneka McGee

Can I preface that with a question and then a response?

[00:34:12.970] – Steve Barkley

You Bet.

[00:34:13.120] – Dr. Nneka McGee

Okay. One of the questions I also like to ask is, is the future of education, education? That’s a little negative I’ll throw out there.

[00:34:25.760] – Steve Barkley

Wow.

[00:34:26.660] – Dr. Nneka McGee

It’s something that all of us, superintendents’ particular, as the CEOs, as the leaders, the education leaders in their communities – and so with that, I also like to say it’s okay to breathe, but don’t hold your breath. And that is the mindset. So it’s okay to take time. It’s okay to say no. I am someone who has, like I told you way back, I’ve loved AI. I’ve been a part of AI. I spent a lot of time researching AI, going I went through this dissertation process, talking about it. People are always surprised at how cautious I am, and I call myself a cautious advocate about implementation. It’s because of the research and understanding what the implications are. And so it is okay to say, no, you don’t have to have all the tools. Please ask that question, is it necessary? At the same time, don’t hold your breath. Don’t close in and close yourself off and hold that innovation in because that also isn’t healthy and over time can impact students in a way that doesn’t help prepare them for the future.

[00:35:42.480] – Dr. Nneka McGee

Just very quickly, I’ll tell you a story. I was a math teacher, and both my parents, as I told you, are math people. I was one of those teachers who were like, no calculators. I taught middle school math. No, I didn’t use a calculator until I was in college. I don’t want to see the calculators. No. And of course, scientific calculators are all the rage. You would think, oh, yes, that’s great. No calculators, you’re really learning. But when they started going to high school, and particularly because some of the advanced high schools, and they that are using those TI-84’s and all of the things, they were at a disadvantage because they were not taught how to use them because I was  pure, don’t use them. So did I help them ultimately? Or could I have said, you know what? We’re going to learn without these computers, without these calculators, but I want to make sure you’re prepared. And so here’s however much time we need to ensure that you have been exposed and have access to this so that you’re prepared. I like to talk about that, even though it’s a vulnerable moment for me because it has helped me.

[00:36:53.000] – Steve Barkley

That is just an awesome example. I am pretty sure I’ll be quoting you a few times around the concept of, it’s okay to breathe, but not to hold your breath. That puts a lot of things in a perspective.

[00:37:15.300] – Dr. Nneka McGee

Thank you so much.

[00:37:17.380] – Steve Barkley

If folks want to follow up with the work you’re doing, maybe come back to us with some questions, what’s the best way for listeners to be able to touch base with you?

[00:37:28.900] – Dr. Nneka McGee

Sure. So through my website, muonglobal.com, you’ll see my founder space – it has a lot of information about me and my contact information. I do have to do my shameless plug for my jumpstart guide that’s coming out. It will be out at the end of January. “AI for Young Learners: Balancing Tech Use with Authentic Off-Screen Experiences.” I’m also available on LinkedIn. If you search for Nneka, then my last name, McGee, that’s where I do spend time providing posts and other information. You can learn about my other love, which is a whole other conversation, which is quantum computing.

[00:38:19.640] – Steve Barkley

Well, we will list those contacts in the lead-in to this podcast. Thank you so much.

[00:38:26.480] – Dr. Nneka McGee

Thank you.